The person has not posted any comments on the site yet
about 1 week ago
This is a great conversation, thank you all for helping on this by posting your thoughts! Been thinking a lot about this since it's been posted and I like what John said about keeping it simple and the parts about exhaust and how to measure everything. The SUV thing didn't sit well for me. If we already measure by clearance (measured by the lowest part of the underbody) why define truck and suv and leave things out? The reason we're defining anything at all is that not all vehicles will fit over obstacles and around corners. That's really it. We define exhaust because noise will close trails especially in residential areas like we have in SEWI. So how about defining vehicles as: Small (using specs of 2 door suv) Medium (using specs for 4 door suv) Large (using light truck) XL (full sized) Sadly, there isn't a more simple way to do this (is there?) unless we cut out some vehicle types. We'd have to post an image or examples as mentioned as well. Has to use dimensions that fit the industry, DNR needs these things defined so if they are issuing the stickers by make and model, they can verify what is what (generally). I didn't want to do inspections as it adds a ton of cost, training, and complexity to the system (and possible gov waste). We have laws in WI for lifts and stuff, didn't want to go past what made them road legal for inspections. If it's not legal to be on the road, it's not legal to take it on the trails. That way is very simple? Exhaust - To check exhaust an app does work for very rough numbers that people can check themselves. We have sound meters here at work and most DNR wardens do carry them already. Would it be easy to do 100dB @ 2k RPM @ 45 degrees and 24 inches from tailpipe for trial use? Course we have to test that with some vehicles like mentioned above but you get the idea. This stuff can get VERY technical but it would be best to keep it simple, cut and dry.
about 2 weeks ago
Hi Jon! Thanks for giving your feedback :) It's very common to use dB meters in the ATV / UTV / Motorcycle / Snowmobile trail worlds and many DNR and trail patrol already have the meters to use. I did have a 100dB on there at first but then it was taken off because I couldn't find a national standard for 4x4 trail exhaust. Like with an ATV in WI you measure at a RPM so many feet back at a angle and that specification was using a national standard. While there are standards for highway noise https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/Environment/noise/measurement/mhrn05.cfm and there are trail documents like this https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5133836.pdf that say things about this, but nothing really on how to measure the 4x4 (unless I'm missing something). Alexander Bub has a fair amount of background in this area, perhaps he could shed some light on if there is a national standard for testing 4x4 trail vehicles that we could use in the RL4WD world. Because we're street legal, our wording would always have to end with something like "greater sound suppression requirements may exist for road use. Check your local laws for compliance." kinda thing. I agree that even with Jamie Stautz and his Dakota Custom billion HP Wrangler and Tim Koziol and his megaflow exhaust, both are easily considered quiet crawling around at idle in the woods. Slow speed trails solve a lot of the sound issues that a fast trail would have and because these are road vehicles, almost everywhere we go, we're at a place with a local sound level requirement for the road. I'd think the only thing that wouldn't pass would be an unmuffled or straight pipe vehicle but there again, it comes back to it not being legal for the road. Do we need to have the expensive equipment? Not really, most phone app sound meters are within 5dB of being accurate enough to pass or fail a rig. I took out the 100dB stuff earlier on because I don't have anything to base that dB on. Maybe you all could find something that fits? I gotta believe that the trails out west or east would have something we could use. Trail - while 90% of what we want to build... ok 99% of what we want to build is for Wrangler types, as the Road Legal 4WD Assoc., we need to spell out that not all RL4WDs are the same. Trails for a 2 door CJ5 that are tight are usually almost impossible to turn with my JLUR, and that's ok. We need to spell this out and classify the types of rigs because we're getting trucks at events now and it's very hard to guide a truck through a suv trail. We need to say "this trail is designed for a 2 door SUV, beyond that damage to the trail or vehicle may result" in some fashion. Do we use the SUV? I went back and forth on going that far since so many subarus could easily do level 1-2 crawling trails as well. The other thought I had on this was to go with something like Ultralight, Light, Medium, and Heavy over 2 door SUV, 4 door SUV, Light Truck and Heavy. Some states and parks use tiers like this because they're trying to say "a trail for a 1 ton truck will not be the same as a trail for a 2 door SUV" the thing is, what do we call it so we could toss it on a sign and people know right away what it means. Sure SUV is very specific but it also needs almost no explaining. Sure, it leave out some vehicles but we do add in wording like "and related" to cover those who buck the norm. It's still a pickle and it's required many hours of thought, sign testing and feedback.
about 2 weeks ago
Ya and wardens could inspect at any time via our stipulations if it went into law. Again, the reason these things are so darn important.
about 2 weeks ago
Thanks for your feedback Doug. Yes, most of the trails we build are 4 door SUV or smaller but all the public trails we've mapped are more or less public roads (with a few exceptions) and those would allow most of the big rigs on them... but they won't be fun. As for trail development, a key aspect to the beginning of a trail that's designed for SUV would be to build a width gate and first turn right after that would dictate the rest of the trail system specs. So mainly, we'd instruct the trail builders to make the trails and gate based on the width, height and length. If you make it hard to get a Light Truck on a SUV 4 or 2 door trail, then that helps keep them off of it. These trails will be public at some point if we we are going to do the legislation to pay for it. We need to build the system to withstand how we want trails built. With the weight, maybe we add in that the base of trail for more than light truck will need to be rock or prepared bottom to withstand the weight. We're not looking to build mud runs here so if a trail wants funding for full-sized vehicles, then it'll have to take the weight (and that usually doubles the price so most won't do it). We need to have the types of 4x4s in here so we can zero in on what we need focus on. So maybe we map out 5,000 miles of dirt roads in 2019... of that 5% may be crawling type stuff... if they don't join they don't see the map or address of where it is anyway, but it doesn't take much to guess. Problem is, without being a member they can't see the pictures or reviews.. heck, we could even make the search criteria unusable unless they are a member. That's all possible. BUT we want to show there are loads of fun trails in Wisconsin and that's gotta get em in the door. Could we make it where they'd have to pass an online class before the trails show up? You bet. We could do that right now in fact. There will always be people that wreck it for anyone, so again it's important that we grow the trail guide and ambassador programs just as fast as the trail directory. Will need to be able to measure things by width and length along with ground clearance. Those can be measured on the trail, weight is very hard to measure in the field unless you buy the right equipment like these scales https://amzn.to/2E2YjhB but then that's hard to fund. Weight could be a list of vehicles easily enough though too.
about 2 weeks ago
But shouldn't everyone know what their vehicle width is? I had to get out and measure mine. I mean we could toss out examples for sure but ytou could have a samarai with an extended axle set that would make it impossible to turn in tight stuff. Light truck is like a F150 or Half Ton Pickup or the new Jeep truck Gladiator.